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SombraAla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 361
Location: North Kansas City
Crumpet Stick: Muramasa
First Played: 1998

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally we don't have people sliding with their feet out in front of them (the slide tackle definition that was given states this, at least). In this case, it sounds like the term 'slide-tackle' is not necessarily an accurate term for what we are discussing - either that or we are discussing something that doesn't occur already anyways.

The problem I have with bringing sports like Hockey and Football into the picture is that those sports are geared towards people running into each other at high speeds, which Crumpets is not. If we were going to use these sports as a guideline for Crumpets we should also impose rules against helmet-to-helmet contact and high sticking.

I think we need to take a look at this from a simple frequency standpoint. We have allowed sliding of all forms for the last 10 years or so and in that amount of time I woud wager there would be less than one non-slider sliding related injury per year, if even that. When we were considering throwing rules, there were becomming more to the effect of 1 injury per every 1 to 2 games (not sustained, but that's what prompted the discussion). Discussions like these make it sound like we need to have ambulences on site or something. People need to be careful, but I don't think we need to be calling 'bloody murder' whenever someone is sliding on their knees or anything.

As for cleats - I still feel that there's a danger put into play in respect to people's hands, barefeet or any other unprotected area when it comes to cleats. I also find them unnecessary for Crumpets. The fact that some players find them to be unfair would make me think that perhaps people should wear them, but personally I'm not really too upset about them myself. I do think that we shouldn't have to have anyone bring anything special to crumpets, outside of clothes to run around with. I would hate to have it ever get to the point where people felt the need to bring cleats to make them 'better'... especially because being 'better' isn't what it's all about.
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Europa



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 9




PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have mentioned these rules from different games because they all involve hitting a person knee level or below. This is what is considered dangerous by the leauges that enstate the rules. Attacking a person at or below their knees when they are firmly planted is very dangerous....

As for cleates as I said before I don't like to slip, fall, BREAK or SPRAIN my ankles. This is why people wear cleats the better traction leads to better body control which means a lower likelyhood of injuies for myself.

Like i said it is simple common sense to wear shoes outside when playing on a field that may contain glass, metal and the such. And as for hands it just doesn't happen that somebody gets their hand broken or anything of the sort. This topic of cleats is rather blown right out of proportions. Does anybody else have cleats? Do they have experience playing with and against people wearing cleats?
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Sumobob2



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 567
Location: Lenexa
Crumpet Stick: Chuck
First Played: 1996

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to Greg: I do think that the only kind of sliding we're talking about here is the feet-first kind, which is why the sliding thing is being "blown out of proportion" as well.

In response to Eric:
Quote:
And as for hands it just doesn't happen that somebody gets their hand broken or anything of the sort.
That's exactly the argument for sliding that you've been railing against. It most certainly CAN happen that someone gets their hand broken. Does that mean we need to ban cleats because we're all going to get our hands broken? Of course not. But it's a risk.

I owned cleats. I wore them in high school for football, and pitched them years ago. I've also been stepped on by cleats (once on the lower leg, several times on my feet when I wasn't wearing cleats, and once or twice on my hands which were covered by padded gloves). It hurts, but not that bad. I imagine it would on barefeet. But, I do agree that some degree of risk is assumed by playing barefoot. Again, my concern is one of fairness and less of safety on cleats.

It would also help if everybody involved dropped the righteous indignation that has crept into the conversation. Just because you declare that something is blown out of proportion doesn't make it so, and it doesn't help your argument because it makes everyone else angry, too. If people are posting about this, it's because they think it's important. Please try to remember that we're all friends and that we're all trying to make the game better.
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Europa



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 9




PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Again, my concern is one of fairness and less of safety on cleats.


The thing is, I am talking about safety. The cleats help me control my momentum by adding traction. This helps me control my body and helps me prevent collisions and such as well as helping me have sure footing with regard to not slipping on a wet surface, which can be dangerous in and of itself (it hurts to fall when you are sharply changing directions because you lost your footing). The added edge I may get from the cleats is more a symptom then the intention. Cleats are like any other shoe there is a kind for different ocassions. Running shoes, walking shoes, spiked golf shoes, spiked cross country shoes, and the such. Cleats just happen to be the type of shoe that best prevents injury to the player wearing them when playing on a grass field.
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Europa



Joined: 31 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But alas I've driven this discussion way off topic from the topic which I believe to be the most important. Has there been an injury worse than the concussion Laura sustained in KC Crumpets history? I for one would like to see a doctor after I've had a concussion as to answer the ambulance question.

I agree with Sumobob2's post with the rule and the resulting penalty. This, hopefully, will be enough deterrent to prevent hard collisions, more specifically those that hit at or below knee level.

I do apologize for the tone I've taken. I do not want this conversation to turn bitter though I am steadfast on my position on the sliding tackle. I do not know how to make it any clearer how much I am against a sliding tackle or to define it in the manner of which I am talking about:
When a player leaves his/her feet, slides on the ground (head, feet or body first) and makes hard contact with another person at or below knee level.

I have been so against this type of contact that this was the reason I quit playing crumpets for a bit of time. And to make it completely clear how serious I am, I will quit again if necessary.

I care not to argue the point across a forum. If you want to discuss this further, talk to me, don't post on some forum where I feel we are having a psuedo discussion. In fact I believe we should have a crumpets meeting about this since we obviously get little feedback from the entire KC crumpets community.
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SombraAla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 361
Location: North Kansas City
Crumpet Stick: Muramasa
First Played: 1998

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have actually been broken bones in respect to injuries in crumpets. Those type of injuries have been kept out of the KU and Kansas City clubs, but have happened in Missouri and Chicago clubs. As for the worst injury to a KU or Kansas City player, I'd have to say that it would be a difficult one to call. Bad throws have caused some pretty painful but not necessarily serious injuries, other injuries have occured due to people running into each other. I guess there was the time Dan got hit in the mouth, which resulted in the most blood we've had.

As for the potential rule change (I think I missed Robbie's post on this initially), I'm fine with it, although I think I would make it not slide specific, which is to say that if a player slides, runs into or otherwise causes a collision which results in a fall. I guess this just makes it so that someone who barrels over a person is also 'at fault'. We would obviously not include situations in which a person ran into another completely accidentally (didn't know they were there, off balance and/or falling, was obviously trying to stop and/or avoid the collision. etc.) As with the high-throw rule, I just don't see the necessity for distinguishing between someone who is sliding versus someone who is standing up. I don't think that it will really matter as I doubt anyone will be running into people standing up such that they would need a penalty called on them, but it at least leaves it open to such.

Lastly, as for cleats, I don't recall offhand anyone in all my experience playing crumpets having a sprained or broken ankle. That's why I think they're unneccessary, because I haven't witnessed a time when having them would've made a positive difference (in safety at least). But again, as I said, I'm ok with them myself. I think perhaps people should bring normal shoes as well that they can use in case someone wants to go barefoot. This would be, in my opinion, the best compromise, as some people like going barefoot from time to time (even if it is dangerous) and I wouldn't want people to feel like they couldn't b/c someone was wearing cleats.
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jgramarye



Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 86
Location: Lawrence, KS
Crumpet Stick: Heart of Gold (The Infinite Improbability Driver)
First Played: April, 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the first several months that I played, I played barefoot, because I got better traction that way than I did with any other shoes I had. Eventually, I did enough damage to my feet (not necessarily playing, also other contexts, but never from stepping on sharp objects) that I had to start wearing shoes, and moreover had to actually buy shoes for playing in.

I avoided cleats out of consideration for other people, as I stated previously. While I've had more (unintentional) slides since I started wearing shoes, none of them have ever resulted in knee or ankle injuries. I will admit to some jars and bruises from landing on the ground, but never anything significant.

The one truly significant injury I've sustained was also a concussion, and was actually accompnied by a blackout, which I didn't realize until a play later. (That intervening play involved me taking a stick cleanly across the throat, which laid me out again, but that really was completely independent.) What tipped me off that there was something funny going on was that everything that I knew to be recent past seemed like distant past, and what seemed like recent past was (as best I could tell) remembered dreams.

What caused this injury was a dive-roll, much like what I commonly perform, except that I collided with someone else while in the air. That caused me to roll over such that I landed on my back and slammed my head backward into the ground.
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Tau



Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Maryland/DC



PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robbie, I support the proposal you wrote on the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

Um, I'm not sure where this thread is headed, so I guess that's all for now.
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Tau



Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Maryland/DC



PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, a traction comment: If anyone out there is worried about traction but is playing in a group that decides to restrict cleats, I understand your concern. As a person who likes to run and change direction abruptly, I like traction too. But fear not, there is another way to increase traction: slow down a little. Sure, it's not perfect, but if big friends respect their little friends by not throwing them across the field, than quick folks get give a little too, right?

I hope things work out for you in KC.
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Sumobob2



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 567
Location: Lenexa
Crumpet Stick: Chuck
First Played: 1996

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent. I was hoping to get some feedback from up NY way. Thanks for the input!
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melruth



Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 277
Location: Lawrence
Crumpet Stick: Brick
First Played: August 19, 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boys. Are. Wierd.
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Sumobob2



Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 567
Location: Lenexa
Crumpet Stick: Chuck
First Played: 1996

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg mentioned yesterday that he chose not to slide (or throw, I forget which) in order to save my ankles. My ankles (and knees) and I would like to thank him
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